Splitting up the PT
January 18, 2008 by kj
Commenter Ryan posted the following the other day:
One thing I think I’ve been seeing in games that I haven’t seen talked about anywhere is that it seems like Walton is playing far, far worse than I’ve ever seen him. He’s never been great with the ball, but I’ve seen a lot of ridiculous turnovers the last six or eight games. His defense hasn’t seemed to be super-impressive this year either. I think it may be time to give six or seven of his minutes to Isaiah Dahlman and see what he can do with them. I also can’t see any reason why Allen and Summers are getting the same playing time. Summers has shown a willingness to rebound, set picks, etc. while in the game, while Allen is a black hole on both ends of the court if his shot isn’t falling. I think the ideal solution would be to start Neitzel/Summers, have Lucas and Walton/Dahlman as the backups at the point and 2, and pair Allen with Kebler on the garbage time team for the time being.
(Advantage of posting a comment on a fledgling blog: The blogger will get so excited somebody commented that he’ll cite the entire thing in a future post.)
He raises an interesting question: With Walton’s recent offensive struggles (18 points on 24 FG attempts in his last 8 games) and Allen’s return to health, how does the playing time at the perimter slots break down for the rest of the year?
Here are the minutes/game averages to date this season (note they add to more than 200 minutes/game due to missed games by some players):
Perimeter Players
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Neitzel: 30.8
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Morgan: 27.6
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Lucas: 24.1
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Walton: 22.1
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Summers: 13.9
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Allen: 12.7
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Dahman: 3.5
Big Men
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Suton: 26.3
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Naymick: 19.1
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Gray: 17.1
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Ibok: 5.8
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Herzog: 5.4
I think the minutes among the big men are pretty well defined at this point. Suton’s going to play 25-30 minutes. Naymick and Gray will split the other 40-50 minutes (depending on how often MSU goes small with Morgan at power forward). Ibok and Herzog will only play when they need to absorb fouls against a post player or we REALLY want to block some shots.
The PT at the perimeter slots is getting more scarce, though. Let’s assume Izzo doesn’t use the small lineup very much during the rest of Big Ten play, as most Big Ten teams play two legitimate big men and he’s not going to risk foul trouble with Morgan guarding post players. That means there are 120 minutes to split between six players (seven if you count Dahlman). In any close game, Neitzel and Morgan are going to play 30 minutes each, barring foul trouble. So now we’re down to 60 minutes to split between 4-5 players. Let’s examine those five players:
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Lucas: He’s clearly becoming the one guy on the floor who can create on offense outside of a set play at any given time. I think he needs to be on the floor for 25 minutes per game.
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Walton: Offensively he’s clearly regressing. But his defense can be such an asset. He combines the quickness and tenaciousness of a point guard with the ability to guard larger players because of his strength. (Remember the story about how he could bench press more than anyone else on the team?) I think Izzo will play him at least 20 minutes/game. Obviously, he has to get his shooting touch back, at least on wide open outside shooting opportunities.
So basically two of Neitzel, Lucas, and Walton are going to be on the floor at any given time (30+25+20=75). This is probably a good thing from the perspective of limiting turnovers.
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Summers: I agree with Ryan that he’s been clearly more productive than Allen. He’s much more versatile. But here’s the thing: The parts of the game he excels at (mid-range shooting, attacking the basket in transition, rebounding from the perimeter) are exactly the same things Morgan does well. And we know Morgan is going to be out there at small forward 75%+ of the time.
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Allen: The one thing he brings that Summers doesn’t is three-point shooting. Summers is shooting a higher percentage right now, but on a lot fewer attempts. And this was Allen’s reported bread-and-butter coming into college. My guess is that Izzo is going to make sure Allen continues to get minutes because he’s going to need another pure three-point threat beyond Neitzel at some point (example: Allen’s two three-pointers against Ohio State’s zone).
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Dahlman: I really see no light at the end of the tunnel for Dahlman. The odds are high he transfers after the season. As bad as Walton has been offensively, Dahlman has never shown any glimpse of the scoring acumen he possessed in high school. His outside shot takes too long to get off and isn’t very accurate when he does get it off. And he’s not big or athletic enough to be a threat going to the basket.
Summary: I think Summers’ and Allen’s opportunities for minutes are going to get squeezed, particularly against tougher opponents. Izzo will have to decide if Summers deserves more minutes due to his production–with the potential payoff being playing him and Morgan together in smaller lineups come NCAA tournament time. Alternately, I can see him shifiting the minutes toward Allen in the hopes he’ll adjust his three-point stroke to the college level to give the offense more ability to adjust to zone defenses.
As far as Walton goes, one solution is what I suggested in the Ohio State game recap: When Lucas and Walton are both in the game, put the ball in Lucas’ hands most of the time. Walton can then focus on (1) defense and (2) hitting open shots. Walton is not a bad spot-up shooter. But he can’t create his own shot or shots for other the way Lucas can.
Thanks for sparking this post, Ryan. Feel free to rebutt.
I agree with KJ in that Dahlman’s minutes should be limited. Allen’s performance against ohio state was good as was summers and lucas. If we had to change the allocation of minutes I would definitely be increasing summers and allen. Allen shot well against Ohio st, and I feel like he hasn’t had the opportunity to really get going. If he hits his first two against ohio st, maybe we need to look to him more. We know drew can catch fire, but maybe allen has the potential to do the same. Similar to what Crawford did in the first half for Indiana when they play Minn.
Personally, I would like to see Izzo put Raymar at the 4 more often, with Lucas, Neitzel, Summers/Allen, and throw in a big. I think Allen needs to get more minutes. I’ve watched some of his high school film, and he is clearly a lethal scorer. The nagging foot injury and adjustment to the faster, stronger pace of the college game have hurt his progression early on, but he is an asset off the bench that I believe Izzo will start utilizing more often.
The more i watch Quise play, the more i think he is a bum. Except for the occasional alley-oop dunk, i think we can agree he’s worthless. Let’s rotate Suton and Naymick in at the 5 postition, and play more of a run and gun style offense. This doesn’t need to be the lineup for the entire game, but we need more of it to keep the opposition off balance and tired. I really think a lot of big ten teams would have trouble matching up with us. Look at Tennessee for example…they have a plethora of depth and talent at the guard/wing position. They play 4 guards/wings around a 6-9 Wayne Chism. Except for their early season loss to an at the time red hot Texas team (who oh by the way shot just under 64% from the field that game), they have been very tough and look like a real contender!
Marquise’s growth really has stagnated. Offensively, it seems like he’s a near automatic turnover if he gets the ball down low in a non-dunk situation. A couple times I’ve sensed the tension between him and Izzo on the sidelines. I don’t think Izzo is pleased with his play–hence Naymick’s insertion in the starting lineup for the last three games.
Gray is still rebounding, though. 6th in the conference in defensive rebounding %. We shouldn’t undervalue that.
agreed with the initial post on Walton, seems like he makes a ton of turnovers in transition (though as a buddy of mine pointed out, if Walton throws a pass off someone else hands, who gets the TO??) Walton’s taking 7 shots Tuesday night (most of them forced) was ridiculous, I’d like for him to shoot when he’s left wide open but there’s no need to force.
He does have a role on this team but simply needs to worry about that, defense, toughness and leadership, just like last year. I don’t think minutes should be an issue, Allen will slightly get more as he improves, and after having not enough players last year, having too many is a nice problem.
That’s a good question on turnovers. My assumption is that it goes to the player who last had possession–so the passer, rather than the guy who didn’t catch it. But maybe it’s more of a judgment call by the scorer.
Agree that having too many players is the preferable problem.
I like the analysis in this blog entry, but I think your speculation that “The odds are high [Dahlman] transfers after the season” is unnecessary and tacky. You seem to assume that minimal playing time = transfer. It’s not that simple, and unless you have knowledge about ID’s personal views on the subject, you probably shouldn’t be commenting on the odds of his transfer.
Well I don’t know about “tacky.” It’s clearly speculative. I probably could have phrased it less forcefully: “There’s the distinct possibility Dahlman will transfer after this season.” Maybe I’m reading too much into the Maurice Joseph precedent.
I don’t hold anything against Dahlman. But he’s going to be a junior next year and likely trapped behind six other perimeter players. If he wants to stay and contribute in practice or in case of injuries, I don’t have a problem with it (and I certainly don’t think Izzo would force him out).